BTC - - By The Church?

I have been looking for the book and believe I have a copy coming. Anyone else know anything about this?

I am wondering - - anyone else come across books they think might have influenced SickPuppy?

Inspired by the Likens Case
The murder of Sylvia Likens has been dealt with in at least five, and possibly six, works. The easiest to get hold of is The Basement by feminist Kate Millett. Prior to starting this book, Millett had put on several sculptural exhibitions inspired by the Likens case.

The Basement is an odd combination of nonsense and brilliance, of fact and fiction together with the author's personal reactions to the crime. Millett foolishly reads all kinds of cosmic implications into it and projects her own beliefs -- pacifist as much as feminist -- onto the dead girl in ways that defy credibility.

On the other hand, the book contains much powerful, poetic prose and astute observations that ring real. Millett's account of the courtroom testimony is riveting. Some of The Basement's fictionalized passages are both lyrically intense and utterly believable: they "burn a hole in the page" (Nadine Gordimer once said this is the point of fiction) and mind.

Many readers of The Basement, both those who liked it and those annoyed by the author’s fictionalizing, close the book yearning for a "just the facts" account of the case. That account is found in The Indiana Torture Slaying:, a quickie paperback by reporter John Dean (not of Watergate fame) who was briefly called to testify at the trial. Millett got much of her information from this book and she properly gave him credit.

1966, the year when this book was published, was not a good time for books about true murder cases. It was put out by Bee-Line Books, a publisher specializing in cheap pornography with titles like Peekin Place so it never found its proper audience.

Recently reissued by Borf Books, it is good journalism, written in a restrained and compassionate manner. There are problems with it, however. A student of the case whom this writer will call "Craig Kelley" complains that the "author almost canonizes Stephanie," a girl who, on at least one occasion, helped tie Sylvia up and who might have done more to check the outrages of her boyfriend, Coy Hubbard.

Mr. Kelley makes another good point when he says, "Dean just skips over a lot of really significant things. He reports that GB had only three spoons in the house and then goes on to something else."

The Likens case inspired a horror novel called The Girl Next Door by Jack Ketchum. Ketchum has turned the calendar back a bit, setting his tale in the 1950s. Pretty Meg and her sister Susan have been orphaned and sent to live with their Aunt Ruth Chandler, a mother of three boys whose home is a magnet for neighborhood kids. The Girl Next Door is a repulsively readable story. Ketchum has given the tale a haunting spin by having it narrated by David, a teenaged boy who watches Meg's tortures with a combined sense of titillation and disgust. Ketchum believably depicts David’s confusion of conscience and his reluctance to take a stand against the others and stop the show – until it is too late.

Patte Wheat brought the story into the 1970s in By Sanction of the Victim. The story is told from the viewpoint of the victim, young Marjorie who is, along with her little brother Bruce and their dog Rocket, boarded at the home of Florrie Genoud. It is a powerful work of compassion and depth. Co-founders of Parents Anonymous, a group for potential or actual child abusers, give both a foreword and an after-word to the novel. However, the title, suggesting that the tormented child “sanctioned” her own abuse (a suggestion that is not made in the body of the work) is obscene.

It is possible, although not certain, that the Likens case served as an inspiration for Mendal Johnson’s only novel, Let’s Go Play at the Adams’. The parallels are not nearly as strong as in The Girl Next Door and By Sanction of the Victim. Johnson sets his story in affluent suburbia. There is no adult ringleader. A group of kids ranging in age from seventeen to ten tie up Barbara, their twenty-year-old babysitter. None of the moral accusations that were leveled against Sylvia – that she was a glutton, a thief, a slanderer, and a prostitute – figure in this novel. However, there is enough resemblance between the Adams’ tale and the Likens murder to suggest a connection. The teenaged Dianne is described as “bony” like Mrs. Wright. The main torturers of Sylvia were two females and three males as is the case in Adams.’ Finally, the murderers burn Barbara with a hot poker before finishing her off. They do not, however, make words out of the marks.

If Johnson was influenced by the Likens case, he, like Craig Kelly, saw it as “the ultimate example of how cruel children can be,” a sort of Lord of the Flies scenario come to life. Mr. Kelly believes that the Likens torture “was about fun (twisted and perverted as it was). The neighborhood kids were having a great time. I think GB was a complete whacko and the kids were the major villains.” After all, Mr. Kelly notes, Mrs. Wright. lived in a house with ten people in it and only one spoon which convinced him that she was “a total basket case, incapable of raising children or managing life.”

Although not about the Sylvia Likens case, a book called Dear Corinne, Tell Somebody! Love, Annie was inspired by it. It’s author, poet, playwright, and composer Mari Evans, told The Indianapolis Star that she first became concerned about child abuse because of Likens’ horrible death. Evans was deeply involved with the Black Arts Movement of the 1960s and her book is directed primarily at African American youngsters.

A never-published play called Hey, Rube was also inspired by this slaying and that leads us to a most bizarre coincidence. The author of that play, Janet McReynolds, is the wife of the man who played Santa Claus at the Ramsey family's Christmas party just a couple of nights before six-year-old JonBenet Ramsey was murdered. Two of the factors in young JonBenet's life that may have played a role in her death were her bed-wetting and the early sexualization of the tiny beauty queen, making the parallels to the murder of Sylvia Likens eerie indeed.

http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache:mMAbJoF7j0YC:
www.crimelibrary.com/classics4/likens/11.htm+%22the+basement
%22+murder+Mcreynolds&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

1965 torture slaying remains one of Indianapolis' most notorious crimes

File updated:03-06-2001

Sylvia Likens
Baniszewski
On Oct. 26, 1965, Indianapolis police were called to a rundown house on East New York Street where they found the body of 16-year-old Sylvia Likens on a bare mattress in an upstairs bedroom. The only adult resident of the house, Gertrude Baniszewski, told investigators she had been caring for Sylvia while her parents were out of town -- and that the teenager had been attacked by a gang of boys.

But a coroner's examination would show that Sylvia had been systematically beaten and malnourished for weeks. Her body was covered with sores, burns and bruises. She had been branded, and the words "I am a prostitute" were etched on her stomach.

Although Sylvia's injuries were horrific, the most shocking fact about the case was that the torture had gone on so long and had involved so many neighborhood children, who had joined in on the "punishing" of Sylvia. Neighbors had heard strange noises and visitors to the Baniszewski home had seen at least some of Sylvia's injuries.

How it began:

Sylvia's ordeal began in July 1965 when her parents, Lester and Betty Likens, offered Baniszewski $20 a week to care for their two daughters while they traveled with a carnival operating a concession stand. Baniszewski agreed to board 16-year old Sylvia and 15-year old Jenny.

Lester Likens said his girls needed some discipline and encouraged Baniszewski to "straighten them out."

Gertrude Baniszewski was a haggard, underweight asthmatic who had endured several failed marriages, 13 pregnancies and six miscarriages in her 37 years. She had seven children living in the house. The eldest, Paula, 17, was unmarried and pregnant. The youngest was an infant.

The Baniszewski home at 3850 E. New York St., later described by attorneys as a "cesspool," was also the hangout of other neighborhood children, who called her "Gerty."

No one has been able to explain how Sylvia became the object of torture that summer. The punishment started with "whippings" with a fraternity-style wooden paddle for both Likens girls, as they lay naked across a mattress.

The girls were beaten for exchanging soft drink bottles for change at a nearby grocery. Gertrude's resentment toward the girls began to focus on Sylvia alone. She was the outspoken one. Jenny was small and frail because of a childhood bout with polio. Sylvia was beaten for eating too much at a church dinner and kicked in the genitals after admitting she had a boyfriend in California.

Neighborhood children began to crowd the home to participate in the torture. The children took turns practicing their judo on Sylvia, hurling her against a wall. Some began kicking and beating her. Others extinguished their cigarettes on her skin. As Gertrude and a gang of teen-agers watched, Sylvia was forced to undress in the living room and insert an empty Coke bottle into her vagina.

After the beatings, Sylvia was forced into a scalding hot bath so she would be "cleansed of her sins." She was severely beaten and burned for wetting her mattress while asleep and Gertrude decided that Sylvia was no longer fit to live with her children.

Near the end, Sylvia was no longer permitted to leave the house. She was thrown down the cellar stairs and locked in, given crackers for food and refused the right to use a bathroom. Gertrude Baniszewski announced to her children that Sylvia was a "prostitute, and she’s proud of it; so we’ll just put it on her stomach." She took a large needle and began to carve the words "I’m a prostitute and proud of it!" into Sylvia’s stomach. Richard Hobbs, a neighbor boy, finished the etching.

When Baniszewski realized Sylvia might be dying, she forced her to write a note saying a gang of boys beat her. The plan was to blindfold her and dump her in nearby woods with the note. Sylvia tried to escape but Gertrude and one of the boys stopped her, beating her again and throwing her back into the basement.

Sylvia Likens died Oct. 26, 1965. Cause of death was determined to be brain swelling, internal hemorrhaging of the brain and shock induced by Sylvia’s extensive skin damage. Sylvia also suffered from extreme malnutrition. She was buried at Oak Hill Cemetery in Lebanon.

The Baniszewski trial - May 1966

At her trial the following year, Baniszewski denied any knowledge of the torture, claiming the children must have done it all. She entered pleas of not guilty and not guilty by reason of insanity.

On May 19, 1966, a jury found Baniszewski guilty of first-degree murder while Paula Baniszewski was found guilty of second-degree murder. Hobbs, along with Baniszewski's son John and another neighborhood boy, Coy Hubbard, were convicted of manslaughter. Gertrude and Paula Baniszewski were sentenced to life terms at the Indiana Women's Prison in Indianapolis. The boys were sentenced to two-to-21-year terms at the Indiana State Reformatory in Pendleton.

In 1971, the Indiana Supreme Court granted Gertrude and Paula Baniszewski a new trial due to "prejudicial atmosphere," but Gertrude was again convicted of first-degree murder on Aug. 5, 1971. Paula pleaded guilty to a lesser charge of voluntary manslaughter and served about two years in prison after that. The three boys were released on parole for good behavior in 1968, after serving about two years each of their sentences.

In September 1985, Gertrude Baniszewski was released on parole. She changed her name to Nadine Van Fossan and moved to Iowa where she lived in obscurity until her death from lung cancer on June 16, 1990. Paula married and moved to a farm in Iowa. John became a lay minister in Texas and counseled children of divorced parents. Hobbs died of cancer at the age of 21, four years after being released from the reformatory. Hubbard has had several brushes with the law. Lester and Betty Likens divorced. Jenny Likens was last reported living in Maine.

If there was a book written, I would love to know the name of it.

Richard Hobbs, who did most of the dirty work of etching the
words into Sylvia and half that of burning the “3,” died of
cancer when he was only 21.

Coy Hubbard, who took such excessive revenge again and
again for a slur against his ladylove, Stephanie Baniszewski,
served time for burglary some years after his brief stint in the
reformatory. He obtained work as a mechanic. He was later
tried but acquitted for the murders of two men.

John Baniszewski surfaced a few years ago after the
Jonesboro, Arkansas tragedy in which a couple of junior high
school students gunned down four peers and a teacher. He
decided to come forward to say that there is hope for young
murderers and that they can turn their lives around.
Baniszewski had changed his name to John Blake

When he spoke publicly for the first time about Sylvia’s death
he said he still could not adequately explain why he and the
others turned on the girl the way they did. He said that he
harbored a great deal of anger over his parents’ marital
break-up and the lack of adequate food and clothing for him
and his siblings.

Blake acknowledges that his punishment was inadequate to the
terrible crime. “A more severe punishment would have been
just,” he comments. Blake claims he turned his life around
after finding God. However, the Baniszewski family went to a
fundamentalist church both before and during the time the
unfortunate Likens girls boarded with them. In his adult life,
Blake has had no run-ins with the law. He has worked as a
truck driver and realtor and served as a lay pastor. He is
happily married and the father of three although he is now
disabled by diabetes. His vision is blurred and he requires the
assistance of a cane or walker to get around.

Stephanie Baniszewski became a schoolteacher. She also
married and had kids as did Paula who moved to Iowa and is
said to live on a small farm there. It is not known whether or
not she had contact with her paroled mother.

The Likens family continued to endure considerable hardship.
Jenny Likens enrolled in a Job Corps program in 1966 and later
got a job in a bank. She also married. Lester and Betty
divorced in 1967. Benny Likens, Jenny’s twin brother began
showing signs of severe mental illness a few years after his
sister’s hideous death. He became a semi-recluse, tormented
by voices only he could hear.

Betty Likens died in 1999 at the age of seventy-one. A
search of her keepsakes revealed a yellowed newspaper
clipping of Gertrude Baniszewski’s obituary together with a
note by Jenny saying, “Some good news. Damn old Gertrude
died. Ha ha ha! I am happy about that.”

Benny Likens died only four months after his mother. He was
forty-nine and had been mentally troubled for some time. Only
fifteen when his sister Sylvia died, he served in the army and
worked in various restaurants, often as a cook, when he got
out. He started hearing voices and was diagnosed as a
schizophrenic. According to the afterward in The Indiana
Torture Slaying, Lester Likens found out his son was dead
when a letter the father had written to Benny was returned
marked “Deceased.”

The people of Indianapolis have not forgotten Sylvia. A
memorial to her will be dedicated this year on June 22. A
poem by Ivan Rogers will be on the plaque, reading: “I see a
light; hope. I feel a breeze; strength. I hear a song; relief.
Let them through for they are the welcome ones.”

The Likens family was always poor and the marriage was
troubled; Lester and Betty had split up, then gotten back
together, more than once. Given the demands of two sets of
twins and the extra care that had to be given Jenny because of
her disability, it seems reasonable that Sylvia may have felt
rather neglected by her parents.

In her sixteen years of life, Sylvia had known no less than
fourteen addresses because the family moved so frequently.
In the past, she had been left at a grandmother’s house or
boarded out when Lester and Betty did not find it feasible to
take Sylvia and Jenny along with them.

Mementos bear witness to a mother's pain

By: LINDA GRAHAM CALECA

Published: April 3, 1999

When Betty Matheson died at age 71, she left behind a bright pink suitcase filled with newspaper clippings, unpaid bills and baby pictures.

Her husband, Cliff, didn't want it, so he gave it to some friends. The friends opened the suitcase, looked inside, then called a newspaper reporter.

"You've got to see this," said Debbie Bolinger. "It's pretty sad."

Letters of sympathy spill out of the suitcase, urging Betty to be strong and overcome her "troubles."

She never did. In fact, she never recovered from a disastrous decision she made in 1965. That summer, she left two of her daughters in the care of a woman she barely knew.

The babysitter's name? Gertrude Baniszewski.

Back then, Matheson was entertainer Betty Likens, a gorgeous, golden-voiced singer who traveled with a carnival.

She arranged to pay Baniszewski $20 a week to house and look after her teen-age daughters, Sylvia and Jenny Likens.

Within months, Sylvia was dead. The vivacious 16-year-old - nicknamed "Cookie" - had been imprisoned in the basement of Baniszewski's house on East New York Street, where she was beaten, burned and starved.

On Oct. 26, 1965, Sylvia lay dead on a bare mattress in an upstairs bedroom of what became known as the "death house." A coroner who examined the body found cigarette burns, missing teeth, a swollen vagina, cuts, eroded skin, tattoos and severe malnutrition.

Prosecutors argued at the murder trial that Baniszewski had directed the torture and that a group of cruel children, some her own, had carried it out.

Baniszewski and four of the teens were convicted and sentenced to prison terms.

Motive unknown

To this day, no one is sure what prompted the murder that horrified the nation.

Some believe Sylvia's spunky personality incited envy and hatred in Baniszewski. Torturing Sylvia became a form of entertainment for the woman who was divorced, deeply depressed and pill-addicted.

"She was looking for a scapegoat, and she found one," said Kentucky attorney Natty Bumppo, who wrote a book, The Indiana Torture Slaying, after covering the murder trial for The Indianapolis Star. The book still is in demand at local libraries.

Missing Sylvia

Sylvia's sister, Jenny, who was timid and crippled by polio, survived. But she was too frightened to get help. The 15-year-old watched as her sister grew weaker, scratching at the basement walls like a trapped animal.

"I miss Sylvia," says her sister Jenny Wade, now married, 49 years old and living in Beech Grove. "But I don't talk about her much."

Killer dies

A letter she wrote to her mother in 1990, saved in the suitcase, speaks volumes:

"Some good news. Damn old Gertrude died. Ha ha ha! I am happy about that."

A yellowed newspaper clipping is attached, describing how Baniszewski was paroled after 20 years at the Indiana Women's Prison, then moved to Iowa, changed her name and died of lung cancer.

That death was too kind for Baniszewski, Jenny says.

"We wanted her to get the electric chair."

Now Jenny grieves for both her sister and mother.

She is eager to retrieve the suitcase, and especially to see the baby pictures of Sylvia lovingly preserved there by her mother.

"Please say my mom was a really good mom," she says. "I never blamed her. All she did was trust Gertrude."

I found one particular part to be an upsetting coincidence. One character in the play pushes the victim down and says something like, "I'd like to smash your face in. I could crush your skull like a G** D*** egg..." The true "villianess" continually blames the victim and her family for the abuse and death of the victim both before,during and after her trial for the torture, sexual assault, and murder of another character, a young girl. In the play the girl dies later at the hospital after police rescue her. In the Likens case I believe Sylvia was pronounced dead on arrival, but I can't recall.

JMcR also made a reference once to the fables of a "Bad Santa."
I'd never heard any such legend before I did some research.
Dean Koontz has a poem written within his novel, "Mr.Murder"
that might interest some newcomers. I'll look for a copy
and paste some of the passages here later.

Mr. Murder was released before the murder of JBR. Throughout the novel are quotes from "The "Book of Common Sorrows" (a transposed version of SBTC) Also, within the novel are passages of a poem about Santa's evil twin which later became a seperate book for children due to requests from Koontz fans.

Note: Coincidentally, at the end of the book the main character in Mr. Murder, Marty Stillwell, must move his family away to a cottage in the woods to hide from the killer. He changes the names of his children and their hair color. Marty changes his name to "John."

The passages below have been excerpted from Mr. Murder, by Dean Koontz. They were written within the novel a verse or two at a time..

Santa's Evil Twin

Well, now Thanksgiving is safely past,
more turkey eaten this year than last,
more stuffing stuffed, more jams jammed
into our mouths, and using both hands,
coleslaw in slews, biscuits by twos,
all of us too fat to fit in our shoes.

So let's look ahead to the big holiday
that's coming, coming, coming our way.
I'm sure you know just what I mean
It's not Easter Sunday, not Halloween.
It's not a day to be sad and listless.
I ask you young ladies, what is it-?

Someday soon, we'll put up a tree.
Why only one? Maybe two, maybe three!
Deck it with tinsel and baubles bright.
It'll be an amazing and wonderful sight.
String colored lights out on the roof-
pray none are broken by anything's hoof.

Salt down the shingles to melt the ice.
If Santa fell, it just wouldn't be nice.
He might fracture a leg or get a cut,
perhaps even break his big jolly butt.
Oh, wait! I just heard the terrible news.
Hope it won't give you Christmas blues.
Santa was drugged, tied up, and gagged,
blindfolded, ear-stoppled, and bagged.

His sleigh is waiting out in the yard,
and someone has stolen Santa's bank card.
Soon his accounts will be picked clean
by the use of automatic-teller machines.

Hark, the sound of silver sleigh bells
echoes over the hills and the dells.
And look-reindeer high up in the sky!
Some silly goose has taught them to fly.
The driver giggles quite like a loon-
madman, goofball, a thug, and a goon.

Something is wrong-any fool could tell.
If this is Santa, then Santa's not well.
He hoots, gibbers, chortles, and spits,
and seems to be having some sort of fits.
His mean little eyes spin just like tops.
So somebody better quick call the cops.

A closer look confirms his psychosis.
And-oh, my dears-really bad halitosis!
Beware when Christmas comes this year,
because there's something new to fear.
Santa's twin-who is evil and mean-
stole the sleigh, will make the scene,
pretending to be his good brother.

Guard your beloved children, mother!
Down your chimney, into your home,
here comes that vile psychotic gnome!
Reindeer sweep down out of the night.
See how each is brimming with fright?

Tossing their heads, rolling their eyes,
these gentle animals are so very wise-
they know this Santa isn't their friend,
but an imposter and far round the bend.
They would stampede for all they're worth,
dump this nut off the edge of the earth.
But Santa's bad brother carries a whip,
a club, a harpoon, a gun at his hip,
a blackjack, an Uzi-you better run!-
and a terrible, horrible, wicked raygun.

continued below...

They land on the roof, quiet and sneaky.
Oh, but this Santa is fearfully freaky.
He whispers a warning to each reindeer,
leaning close to make sure they hear:
"You have relatives back at the Pole-
antlered, gentle, quite innocent souls.
So if you fly away while I'm inside,
back to the Pole on a plane I will ride.
I'll have a picnic in the midnight sun:
reindeer pie, pate', reindeer in a bun,
reindeer salad and hot reindeer soup,
oh, all sorts of tasty reindeer goop.

With all his tools, a way in can be found
for a fat bearded burglar out on the town.
From roof to yard to the kitchen door,
he chuckles about what he has in store
for the lovely family sleeping within.

He grins one of his most nasty grins.
Oh, what a creep, a scum, and a louse.
He's breaking into the Stillwater house.
With picks, loids, gwizzels, and zocks,
he quickly and silently opens both locks.

He enters the kitchen without a sound.
Now chances for devilment truly abound.
He opens the fridge and eats all the cake,
pondering what sort of mess he can make.
He pours the milk all over the floor,
pickles, pudding, ketchup, and Coors.
He scatters the bread-white and rye-
and finally he spits right in the pie.

At the corkboard by the phone and stool,
he sees drawings the kids did at school.
Emily has painted a kind, smiling face.
Charlotte has drawn elephants in space.
The villain takes out a red felt-tip pen,
taps it, uncaps it, chuckles, and then,
on both pictures, scrawls the word 'Poo!'
He always knows the worst things to do.

Mad giggles from him continue to bubble,
while he gets into far greater trouble.
He's hugely more evil than he is brave,
so then after he loads up the microwave
with ten whole pounds of popping corn
(oh, we should rue the day he was born),
he turns and runs right out of the room,
because that old oven is gonna go BOOM!

He prowls the downstairs-wicked, mean-
looking to cause yet one more bad scene.
When he spies the presents under the tree,
he says, "I'll go on a gift-swapping spree!
I'll take out all of the really good stuff,
then box up dead fish, cat poop, and fluff.

In the morning the Stillwaters will find
coffee grounds, peach pits, orange rinds.
Instead of nice sweaters, games, and toys,
they'll get slimy, sticky stuff that annoys.
Charlotte and Emily are up in their beds,
dreams of Christmas filling their heads.
Suddenly a sound startles these sleepers.
They sit up in bed and open their peepers.
Nothing should be stirring, not one mouse,
but the girls sense a villain in the house.

You can call it Psychic, a hunch, osmosis-
or maybe they smell the troll's halitosis.
They leapt out of bed, forgetting slippers,
two brave and foolhardy little nippers.
Something's amiss, young Emily whispers.
But they can handle it-they're sisters!

Down in the living room, under the tree
Santa's evil twin is chortling with glee.
He's gotten a collection of gift replacements
taken from dumps, sewers, and basements.
He replaces a nice watch meant for Lottie
with a nasty gift for a girl who's naughty,
which is one thing Lottie has never been.

Forgetting her vitamins is her biggest sin.
In place of the watch he wraps up a clot
of horrid, glistening, greenish toad snot.
From a package for Emily, he steals a doll
and gives her a new gift sure to appall.
It's oozing, rancid, and starting to fizz.

Not even the villain knows what it is.
In jammies, slipperless, now on the prowl,
the girls go looking for whatever's foul.
Right to the top of the stairs they zoom,
making less noise than moths in a tomb.
They're both delicate, slim, and petite,
and both of them have such tiny pink feet.

How can these small girls hope to fight
a Santa who's liable to kick and to bite?
Are they trained in karate or Tae Kwon Do?
No, no, I'm afraid that the answer is no.
Grenades tucked in their jammie pockets?
Lasers implanted inside their eye sockets?
No, no, I'm afraid the answer is no.

Yet down, down the shadowy stairs they go.
The danger below they can't comprehend.
This Santa has gone far 'round the bend.
He's meaner than flu, toothaches, blisters.
But they're tough too-they're sisters!

Note: I noted several similarities throughout the poem other than a fictional "Evil Santa".The "red" magic marker, petite young girl, "evil ray(stun) gun". The evil Santa opens "locks" with his "tools," the "kitchen" (butler) door, et al.

Several years ago Jams gave us a tip that Mr.Murder was known to have been owned by a "suspect" however the owner hasn't been made public to my knowledge.

myths that go along with the santa legend

In Germany Saint Nicholas also travels with an assistant, known as Knecht Ruprecht, Krampus, or Pelzebock, and comes with a sack on his back and a rod in his hand. Good children receive a gift, but naughty children are punished by the assistant with a few hits of the rod.

Long before the advertising world got hold of Santa Claus and developed the jolly side of Santa, there were cultures where Santa was a darker figure who would punish little girls and boys.

The Dutch had a character named Black Peter (for his clothing) who was a devil under the control of St. Nicholas and it was Black Peter who would go house to house on St. Nicholas Day in early December with rewards or punishments. Black Peter would also abduct the real bad children and take them to Spain (sounds good today). When this part of the Black Peter myth was developed, the Dutch were at war with Spain.

Don, if you or anyone has a copy of Mr.Murder handy, would you kindly post a passage or two from The Book of Counted Sorrows? The quotes are located at the beginning of chapters & fairly limited.

"Mr. Murder" by Dean Koontz

Part 1

"Santa Claus and His Evil Twin"

"Winter that year was strange and gray.
The damp wind smelled of Apocalypse,
and morning skies had a peculiar way
of slipping cat quick into midnight.

---The Book of Counted Sorrows"

******

Part 2

"Story Hour in the Madhouse"

At the point where hope and reason part,
lies the spot where madness gets a start.
Hope to make the world kinder and free--
but flowers of hope root in reality.

No peaceful bed exists for lamb and lion,
unless on some world out beyond Orion.
Do not instruct the owls to spare the mice,
Owls acting as owls must is not a vice.

Storms do not respond to heartfelt pleas,
All the words of men can't calm the seas.
Nature---always beneficent and cruel---
won't change for a wise man or a fool.

Mankind shares all Nature's imperfections,
clearly visible to casual inspections.
Resisting betterment is the human trait.
The ideal of Utopia is our tragic fate.

The Book of Counted Sorrows"

********

Part 3

"New Maps of Hell"

Those who would banish the sin of greed
embrace the sin of envy as their creed.
Those who seek to banish envy as well,
only draw elaborate new maps of hell.

Those with passion to change the world,
look on themselves as saints, as pearls,
and by the launching of nobel endeavor,
flee dreaded introspection forever.

The Book of Counted Sorrows"

An interesting note about that case: In the murder of the family, the killer strangles the young boy via ligature but covers his face with a plastic bag, as if to "cover up" his crime. Killers who are unknown to their victims often do make some attempt to "undo" murders for which they feel some degree of remorse.

There are many simililarites between this case and Ramsey. The bag of rope found in the Ramsey home was there for a reason. Was the killer prepared to take on the whole family in order to get what he wanted?

There is a 20 year gap between the BTK and Ramsey killings. IF there is a connection, could a long jail sentence {for a different crime} account for his *inactivity* for 20 years?

John Ramsey told me a while ago, that he had never heard of the Witchita case and that he would bring it to the attention of his investigators.

BTK's DNA is on record and his voice is on tape. The Witchita investigators are *considering* releasing the tape to the public. I wish they would. Peoples appearances change over time but voices dont!

Whether or not there is any connection with Ramsey, this case is proof positive that these types of killings do happen and that Jonbenet wasnt the first victim of this type of monster.

I have long been surprised that there hasnt been more interest in this case.

While I agree with you that are some strong similarities between the two cases, there are some important differences as well. First of all, I'm not sure that BTK fits the pattern. Yes, he was focused on the young girl in the Otero murders, but in subsequent homicides he only killed adult women (of course, this could be because he didn't get a chance in the second case). He cut the Otero's phone line, a clear act of premeditation, and committed the crime in broad daylight. Just from my own reading of the Ramsey case (and from John Douglas' analysis as well) it looks like the work of a younger, more inexperienced killer. He used items he found at the scene; BTK brought his own. BTK would have been a bit old in 1996 to commit the sort of unsophisticated crime Jonbenet's killer did. He would have also taken far more precautions to avoid being caught, IMHO.

Evidence shows that Mr. and Mrs. Otero were attacked and killed first. That isn't necessary if you're only interested in the little girl and cool-headed enough to bring your own venetian blind cord. Timothy Spencer, the Virginia serial killer, attacked and murdered a fifteen-year-old girl while her parents slept in the next room.

Yes, there was semen found near the Otero girl, but it was also found elsewhere throughout the house.

Finally, Robert Ressler and John Douglas believe that BTK was an educated, articulate individual hungry for attention. The writer of the Ramsey ransom note, while literate, is certainly not of the same intellectual caliber BKT's writings reflect. And while BTK did write to the police and press, he never requested a ransom. Furthermore, BKT desperately tried to draw attention to himself; Jonbenet's killer has stayed silent.

I'm not saying that the two cases absolutely cannot be connected, but I think that the differences far outweigh the similarities. That being said, I do think it's important for investigators to examine other cases. You never know what (or who) might pop up.

I think that any differences could be explained by experience and maturity. BTK killed the whole family in Witchita, but it appeared that his biggest thrill came from killing the little girl. If he was 20 years older and 20 years less agile in 1996, why take on the whole
family if he didnt have to, when it was a young girl that was the object of his obsession? Perhaps he came prepared to do that {the bag of rope upstairs} if necessary...but only if necessary.

Sure, BTK didnt leave a ransom note, there was nobody to leave one to. Both parents were dead.

BTK wrote letters to the police because he wanted his crimes to generate publicity. Jonbenets killer left a long letter to her parents and as a result, generated more publicity than any crime in recorded history. If her killer wanted publicity, he got more than he could have ever imagined possible. To date...6 years worth.

BTK took the venetian blind cord into the house. JB's killer took the cord, the duct tape and a blue clean up cloth with him. Did he learn from his previous mistakes and endeavour to clean up all traces of himself? Did he know that it was useless to cut phone cords in 1996 when most families had cell phones anyway?

A huge percentage of murderers go on to kill after their release from jail. If BTK was convicted {for something other than the Witchita murders} and has sat in jail for 20 years, he would have had plenty of time to mull over the killing and plan his next one. He would have had plenty of time to decide what he would do differently.

The ransom note uses phrases that only a more mature person would use. By mature, I mean, someone who has lived long enough and heard those phrases often enough, that they become part of his vocabulary. I dont know how *mature* this guy would have been, but certainly not IMO in his late teens or early twenties.

Do the inmates get to watch lots of movies in prison??

Yes, the crime generated a lot of publicity, but I'm not sure Jonbenet's killer intended this. BTK, like the Zodiac killer, repeatedly sought out public and media attention.

By the way, prisoners aren't, to my knowledge, allowed to watch particularly violent movies that might give them ideas, like "Ransom" and "Speed."

I think we should all keep looking for similarities to other cases. This line of inquiry seems very promising.

Very big in the case, was the testimony of a less than desirable druggee that Luther had known....it's what convinced the jury to find Luther guilty, since there was little forensic evidence. The druggee said what convinced him to come forward was one of his victims (Cheryl) was never found and he felt she should have a "proper burial".....the family should be able to bury the remains of their daughter. Luther carried his toolkit around, not knowing when the urge would hit him to strike out and abduct and kill a woman. As a result of the druggee's coming forward, Cheryl's body was found buried under rocks in the mountains--I believe around 1/95--and the family could have a "proper burial."

This case could have had an influence in the "proper burial" statement in the note, if the perp read about it in the paper.

I have read quite widely and no I have not heard of this one.
M

And sure enuff, JonBenet's murder was 22 years after the Wichita, Kansas murders which were in 1974.

Now, think really hard, where else have we seen that 22 years before, in the Ramsey case?

I now believe the S.B.T. stands for strangled her, bound her, and tortured her. After all, two different killers can't possible use the same "hat".

It also tells me that Christmas, the date, had nothing whatsoever to do with the crime, but the year certainly did, and there wasn't much left of the year, was there.

22 years after the 1st Wichita, Kansas BTK murder

Sorry, I just don't think initials just aren't enough to hang a case on.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial7/btk/10.htm

Its a long shot I know, but IF BTK had been incarcerated for many years, his desire for killing would not have been removed...only his opportunity. IF he had been in prison for a sex crime he would be reluctant to return to his home town apon his release. Could the shame and finger pointing, whispering etc, drive him off, only to settle in yet another university town, just over the border, where he was not known?

I am amazed that there hasnt been a book written about this fascinating case. Anne Rule.....where are you???

Since you have read the Crime Library section, I was wondering if you noticed Robert Ressler's brief profile, which indicated his belief that BTK was a graduate student or professor, which does require a certain amount of education.

Also, it is worth noting that while BTK may have been a sexual sadist, he hardly stuck exclusively to children--in fact, the Otero children were his only young victims. The rest were adult women.

BTK simply strikes me as a more intelligent and experienced killer than the writer of the ransom note appears to be. For what it's worth, John Douglas also believes the killer to have been young and inexperienced; BTK would be well into his forties by now and killers, as you may know, tend to get more experienced with age. The Ramsey killing would represent something of a regression for BTK, were it he who committed the murder.

Evening--The Likens murder bears little or no similarity to the BTK murders. There are plenty of murders of women that occur in basements. It's rather convenient for someone who's trying to avoid being heard, wouldn't you think? I also don't give a lot of credence to the "22 years." As I said regarding the use of initials in another post, it's simply not enough to hang a case on.

John Douglas may have said that he believes the Ramsey killer was in his twenties but JD has always maintained that THE most difficult thing to pick, when doing a profile, is the perps age.

~~~BTK simply strikes me as a more intelligent and experienced killer than the writer of the ransom note appears to be. For what it's worth, John Douglas also believes the killer to have been young and inexperienced; BTK would be well into his forties by now and killers, as you may know, tend to get more experienced with age. The Ramsey killing would represent something of a regression for BTK, were it he who committed the murder.~~~

Yes, more experienced with age...I agree. 20 years among criminals in prison would have given him a lot of *experience* of the ways perps get caught. What they do wrong to bring them unstuck. His 'teachers' knew what they were talking about. They had got caught.

20 years ago BTK was young and like most young men, probably thought he was invicible. IF this guy has spent many years in prison, I expect he would want to minimize his chances of going back. His compulsion to kill would not have waned but his desire to brag about it I do agree that the Likens murder is in no way simililar to Jonbenets murder.
P.S. Have you read ''In Cold Blood'' Truman Capote? It was re-released last year. There are many parallels to BTK. Of course, there is no connection, but there is plenty of 'evidence' that suggests BTK was familiar with the Clutter killings {and probably influenced by them} which happened in Kansas in the 1950's.

The only real parallel between BTK and the Clutter killers is that they each killed ONE family in their own home. Yes, there was a young girl involved, but Nancy Clutter was 16, which is quite different from 6. Furthermore, she was shot execution-style, in the back of the head, in her bedroom, and not raped. The focus of Perry Smith's rage was clearly Mr. Clutter, who had his throat cut in addition to being shot. He and Kenyon Clutter were the ones killed in the basement. There was no note, no attempt at gaining publicity, and there were two offenders involved.

I think that many people often see surface parallels and automatically jump to the conclusion that the crimes must be involved. Lots of crimes have surface similarities, but it's the unfortunate truth that lots of women get killed in basements, lots of children get murdered in their own homes, and entire families are murdered. Lots of killers like to write, too. If you're linking BTK based on his writing, for instance, you might as well link the Son of Sam, the Zodiac, and the Forces of Evil killer, William Hance, to the Ramsey killer as well. Criminals are alike in many ways, but each crime has its own distinctive characteristics, however imperceptible they may initially be. It is thus of paramount importance to go beyond surface impressions in order to get at the truth.

And I'm sorry, but lots of kids get kidnapped and killed every year, and plenty of them come from wealthy families. The Ramsey case just happened to get a little more attention than most. If BTK were JBR's killer, he would have drawn attention to the fact long before now. It's simply part of his character. When a murder was committed in Wichita that many suggested might the work of BTK, he actually wrote in to indicate that it wasn't his work. BTK craves attention. Why hasn't he written every newspaper in the country to let everyone know it was him? Traits like that just don't change; they actually become more ingrained with age.

I think there are better connections that can be made that go beyond the surface similarities that are common to any number of sexual homicides.

You seem to be very thin skinned.

We are ALL students of criminology. Why else would we be here?

There are many parallels between Cutter and BTK. If I felt inclined, I would dig out my copy of In Cold Blood and list them. They go beyond the who how and why. Perhaps I saw what you didnt.

BTK was in Kansas. The Clutter killings were the biggest thing to happen in Kansas since Dorothy. Do you think it unreasonable that one sick killer would take an interest in the MO of another sick killer? Particularly one that had operated in his own back yard? To us the Clutter killers were monsters, to BTK they were probably mentors.

Perhaps BTK did study the Clutter killings. Perhaps he also studied the Son of Sam killings. Perhaps he even studied the Nazis, who knows. Lots of connections can be made between lots of crimes, it doesn't mean they're linked. Real linkages are much more subtle than simply, "He killed a girl in a basement."

I am not thin-skinned, I simply don't enjoy repeating myself.

I would like to see a very simple list of similarities between Ramsey and this case - - anyone game?

There are many parallels....if you care to look.

BTK used 'police lingo' in his letters. You predict he was intelligent. As a criminology student, can you give me a reason why he would not have read that best selling book? A book that was most likely in every second household in Kansas? If you concede he may have read that book, can you tell me your reasons why you think he would not be influenced and affected by it?

You know that Dick Hickcock admitted that the only reason he went along with Smiths plan was because he knew there was a young girl in the house.
I can see how BTK could have seen shades of himself in Dick Hickock. Just like Hickcock and Smith did before him, BTK trussed up and killed a whole family in their own home. Unfortunately though, for BTK's young female victim, there was no 'Perry Smith' present, to stop the sexual abuse.

http://www.jameson245.com/leopold&loeb.htm

By the way, I'm not sure that BTK was a criminology student. I think the program he may have been in was criminal justice. I know they sound the same, but criminology is more about theory and CJ is more about practice. This is only significant because I think there's a good chance he may have used a fake badge to "con" his victims into letting him in. It's been theorized that someone posing as a cop attacked Jonbenét, but I'm not sure, given the possible stun-gun evidence, that this was the case. If JBR trusted police officers, there would have been no reason to use a stun-gun on her, unless he did it for kicks, or because she got scared. However, it's also true that police buffs have a penchant for obtaining police gear, and a stun-gun certainly qualifies.

I also wanted to tell Jameson that it might be worth it to consider the similarity to the Lindbergh ransom notes as well.

BTK had a fondness, in the beginning at least, for writing to the police. "When am I going to get my name in the paper etc" I have to wonder how much publicity those killings got in the early days. I find it unusual {if publicity was what he was after} why he was not heard from after 1977 until he sent that letter to the mother of the family killed in the hot tub in the mid 1980's? {claiming HE was not the killer} One detective at least, was convinced the letter was written by BTK.

Speaking of Lindbergh, I have 'The airman and the carpenter' sitting on my bedside table {been there about 6 months now} waiting to be read. So many books...so few hours to read.

That book on Lindbergh isn't the most reliable. The author has pretty wild theories that really on shaky evidence. John Douglas' take on the Lindbegh kidnapping is much better, as is the books "Ghosts of Hopewell." I forgot the author's name, but he's written two books on the subject and I'm sure they would be easy to find.

Sooty, do you think the dingo took the baby?

Since you're an Aussie, maybe you can tell what the latest is with that Snowtown business?

1. The Clutter family was well off, religious (Methodist) respected in the community. The children were good students, popular, the daughter was interested in theatre, performed in the school play.

2. Investigators theorized that the killer(s) were local as he/they "knew all about the house". A former worker/employee of Herb Clutter's ultimately confessed to giving all the information about the house and the family to Dick Hickock, the originator of the plot to rob the Clutters and rape the daughter, while they were both in prison.

3. Perry Smith, one of the murderers, had been raised for a time in a Catholic orphanage, where his lack of bladder control got him in a lot of trouble. He recounts the nights that the nun would wake him in the middle of the night to check his bed for urine. She would shine the flashlight in his face. If the bed was wet she would strike him several times on the head as punishment. This happened several times while he was there and, as you might imagine, it traumatized him. This was one thing that contributed to his hate of religion and religious persons. Another was his one Christian sister who had managed to form a relatively happy and sane life while Perry's sister and mother, both promiscuous, had died from alcohol-induced deaths.
His brother was tormented so much from jealousy, probably from his mother's unfaithful example while he was a little boy, that he drove his young wife to suicide. Upon finding his wife dead he laid next to her and, using a shot gun, killed himself. Perry was quite attached to this sister and brother and took their deaths very hard. The happiness and success of the one sister was a constant reminder to him of his own misery and failure. All his sister's efforts to witness and appeal to him were taken as self-righteous medling or nagging. Perry grew to hate her and voiced his desire to "blow (her) hair all over the wall" as he had done to the Clutters. Obviously, he had transfered his generalized resentment and hate of religious persons and institutions toward the Clutters. Perry later stated that when he and Dick Hickock were in the basement with the flashlight it triggered the rage that led him to cut Herb Clutter's throat and setting off the shot gun rampage. I think our killer has similar fantasies and feelings as Perry.

4. Perry served in Korea 15 months. He was apparently raped/sodomized by a group of other soldiers during this time. The use of the broken handle with the word "Korea" stamped on it may have significance relating the sexual molestation of JonBenet to that of Perry.

5. Dick Hickock describes his jealousy of rich men in one section of the book. Perry and he are trying to enjoy the Florida beaches after fleeing Kansas. Dick tells Perry how the rich always get the good looking girls. The inference is that the girls are gold diggers. But, all the same, he would like to be one of the rich guys so he could have all the girls he wanted. He fantasizes about controlling these fat cats with a knife-having power over them.

6. In one incident at the beach Dick tries to seduce a 10 year old girl. When she draws back he grabs her hand and tells her she is his little sweetheart. This ties into the heart drawn on JB's left palm (although some don't think it a heart ). Dick feels momentary remorse as he reflects on his past pedophillic seductions but quickly recovers as he reminds himself that all men are this way, that the rich guys are luckier at escaping detection or hiring high powered lawyers to get them out of trouble. I believe this is also the attitude of the murderer and is the reason the dictionary was dog eared to the word "incest". " Dick smiled and winked at her. He was sorry he felt as he did about her, for his sexual interest in female children was a….secret he’d never confessed to anyone and hoped no one suspected….Seducing pubescent girls, as he had done 8 or 9 times….He took the child’s hand and said, ‘You’re my baby girl, You’re my little sweetheart."

7. Perry's favorite movie is "Treasure of the Sierra Madre" which starred Humphrey Bogart. He talks about this at length. In summary, the movie speaks of the corrupting power of riches. An employer cheats Bogart and his buddy out of their wages. The two men jump the employer and take what is theirs. Later they join an old prospector in a trip "to the mountains (flatirons)" in search of gold (reminiscent perhaps of Merrick and Ramsey friendship when AG was first formed from 3 companies and Ramseys star began to rise and Ramsey hired his friend to work at the newly formed company). Once there they do strike it rich but greed overtakes Bogart and he steals his partners' share of the gold ($118,000). On the trail he is murdered by banditos (wee doun need no steekin bah-ghez) who are in turn caught and executed. The closing scene shows the gold dust being blown away by the wind.

8.  "Nancy’s bedroom was….girlish, and as frothy as a ballerina’s tutu. Walls, ceiling, and everything else except a
bureau and a writing desk, were pink or blue or white. The white and pink bed, piled with blue pillows, was
dominated by a big pink-and-white Teddy bear...." p.55, 56, 110 "One thing I (Dick Hickock) never told you about the Clutter deal is this. Before I ever went to their house I knew there would be a girl there. I think the main reason I went there was not to rob them but to rape the girl." P.278

9. "She was lying on her side….The bedcovers were drawn up to her shoulders…..Her hands were tied behind her,
and her ankles were roped together with the kind of cord you see on venetian blinds…" p.62
"The cord around her wrists ran down to her ankles, which were bound together, and then ran on down to the
bottom of the bed, where it was tied to the foot board—a very complicated, artful piece of work. Think how
long it took to do! And her lying there, scared out of her wits…..Her mouth had been taped with adhesive…" p.63
"Having once served in the Merchant Marine, he (Perry) understood rope and was clever with knots. He chose a white
nylon cord...." p.37 Perry and Dick confessed on January 3rd., 1960, the day Nancy Clutter would have turned 17 years old (the garrote
cord from knot to handle measured 17 inches).

10. "So we followed him down to the basement. Or playroom…..Sheriff led the way, but inside you couldn’t see your
hand until Mr. Ewalt found the light switch. It was a furnace room….I took one look at Mr. Clutter…..He’d been
shot…his throat had been cut too….His mouth was taped…He was sprawled in front of the furnace…Sheriff…was
pointing at was a blood-stained footprint. On the mattress box. A half-sole footprint…. There was a steam pipe
overhead, and dangling from it, was a piece of cord…Obviously, at some point Mr. Clutter had been tied there,
strung up by his hands, and then cut down…." P.64,65

11. "Alfred Stoecklein….wished ‘folks would stop yappin’ and try to understand ‘ why he and his wife, though they
lived scarcely a hundred yards from the Clutter home, had not heard the slightest echo of gun thunder….A west
wind, like it was, would carry the sound t’other way. ..there’s that big barn ‘tween this house and our’n ….And
did you ever think of this? Him that done it, he must’ve knowed we couldn’t hear….him that done it had it figured
out to the final T…." p.78,79

12. "Why had the murderers taken the trouble to move the (mattress) box ….unless the intention had been to make
Mr. Clutter more comfortable…Those bedcovers. Now, what kind of person would do that--tie up two women …
and then draw up the bedcovers, tuck them in, like sweet dreams and good night? Or the pillow under Kenyon’s
head …" p.103

13. "Dick put on gloves; I’d already put on mine. He carried the knife and flashlight. I had the gun."p.236
"’…when you turned off the upstairs light, that left the house completely dark.’ ‘Did. And we never used the lights
again. Except the flashlight.’" p. 243, 244

14. The two killers arrived at the Clutters house just after midnight (the 15th. of November, 1959). They were there
about 2  hours (THe Ramseys lived on 15th. St.). The killing of JonBenet probably took place between midnight and 2:00am.
"…the Kansas Supreme Court decreed that their lives must end between midnight and 2:00am.,…"p.337
The two murderers were hung (strangled) on the gallows. P.337 Perry expired at 1:19 am (meaning his last minute
of life was 1:18?).

Part of this is taken from Jameson's webpage, part from mine

The murder of the Clutter family was strictly for profit; there was no sexual motive involved, despite Dick Hickock's wanting to "bust" Nancy Clutter. Furthermore, the crimes do not bear any mark of sexual sadism, as does the murder of Jonbenét. The Clutter family murders were committed execution-style, the only exception being not Nancy (who was 16, not 6--there's a big difference when it comes to pedophilia, at least according to my friend, a social worker who worked extensively with victims of sexual abuse) but Mr. Clutter, whose throat was slashed in addition to his being shot. If anyone was the focus of Perry Smith's rage, it was Mr. Clutter; Perry actually felt sorry for Nancy.

The Clutters lived in a small, obscure farming community on the Kansas prairie, where they were well-liked and respected. The Ramseys lived in the comparatively cosmopolitan city of Boulder, and they were not that popular among its citizenry, at least according to Schiller. People who went to church with them didn't even know who they were until after the crime, and Patsy often felt as if she didn't fit into Boulder society.

A family member was never accused of the Clutter murders. The crime received little media attention until Truman Capote wrote his book.

There was no ransom note. There was no break-in--the killers walked in through the front door. The Clutters were shot, not garrotted and none were sexually abused. Smith and Hickock robbed the Clutters; JBR's killer took nothing of value from the scene.

If you hypothesize that the killer was an educated man, that further differentiates him from the Clutter killers, neither of whom could exactly be called intellectuals.

I'm all for using comparative analysis to solve crimes, but I think it's important to go beyond surface similarities in order to get at the truth.

***
I'd have to ask, however, if Hickock had been alone, what degree of "sexual" activity may have taken place.

Regarding "fantasies" involved in these two cases, these are two different sets of perpetrators. The perp in the Ramsey case could have "aspired" to this case, but with his own variations to suit his fantasy (a younger victim). Although the Ramsey parents and Burke were not killed as well, this perp's rage toward them is similar to the rage felt by Smith and Hickock. The RN may be the perp's symbolic attack on the rest of the family.

>
>The Clutters lived in a small, obscure farming community on
>the Kansas prairie, where they were well-liked and
>respected. The Ramseys lived in the comparatively
>cosmopolitan city of Boulder, and they were not that popular
>among its citizenry, at least according to Schiller. People
>who went to church with them didn't even know who they were
>until after the crime, and Patsy often felt as if she didn't
>fit into Boulder society.

***
The opportunity to play out his fantasy opened up for the Ramsey perp in the community he had access to at the time.

>
>A family member was never accused of the Clutter murders.
>The crime received little media attention until Truman
>Capote wrote his book.

***
Unfortunately, the family was wiped out.

>There was no ransom note. There was no break-in--the killers
>walked in through the front door. The Clutters were shot,
>not garrotted and none were sexually abused. Smith and
>Hickock robbed the Clutters; JBR's killer took nothing of
>value from the scene.
>
***
The Clutter killers were not invited in; they broke in. Same as the Ramsey killer(s).
The Ramsey perp's fantasy included more power and control over his victim. He may have used several true crime sources to assist the growth and development of his ultimate fantasy(over a long period of time).
Actually, I've always wondered if the Ramseys even know what was missing from their house (or out of place) since they never returned to it and never packed up their own stuff. Missing items, if any, could have been attributed to "the move".

>If you hypothesize that the killer was an educated man, that
>further differentiates him from the Clutter killers, neither
>of whom could exactly be called intellectuals.
>
>I'm all for using comparative analysis to solve crimes, but
>I think it's important to go beyond surface similarities in
>order to get at the truth.

***
I don't hypothesize that the Ramsey killer was an educated man, but I do think he is better educated than the Clutter killers.

Since I suspect the Ramsey killer was a crime and movie buff, I think it is quite possible he may have integrated the Clutter crime information into his fantasy.

Margoo. For years I believed Lindy was guilty. I'd read everything there was to read about the case and logic said 'guilty'. I didnt know that the cops and media were only feeding us half the story until I read a book called 'Innocence Regained'. I'd 'stumbled' on it at the library. It had been in print for a while but I'd seen no press reports about it....funny that!

After learning the truth, I felt as guilty as hell that I had condemmed Lindy. I also felt outraged that the police and press could do what they did, and scared that it could have been a case of "There but by the grace of God go I". Its sobering to realise that those that are meant to protect us, can turn on us in a heartbeat.

I see the exact same thing happening to the Ramseys. Police forces trying to save face....media screaming guilty because guilty sells papers and books.
When will we ever learn.

Just thought I'd share this:
My daughter sailed off yesterday on a Pacific cruise. I'm watching a live webcam broadcast from the bow of the ship {Pacific Sky}. Nothing but a vast expanse of ocean at the moment {reminds me of Samual Taylor Colleridge}. I guess this means that I could see an iceburg BEFORE the passengers do! Iceburgs in the Pacific??? Well El Nino is responsible for some strange things!

Ahhhh gotta love technology.....